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October 10, 2019

Δ So What Δ? Jazz theory fight "Noreen's Nocturne" Wikipedia Talk

So What Δ chord

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It was employed by Bill Evans in the "amen" response figure to the head of the Miles Davis tune "So What"

In jazz harmony, a So What chord is a particular 5-note chord voicing.


From the bottom note upwards, it consists of three perfect fourth intervals followed by a major third interval.

For example, an "E minor" So What chord is an Em11 voicing:




  1. 0:00




  1. The So What chord is often used as an alternative to quartal voicings and may be used in diatonic and chromatic planing. It is identical to the standard tuning of a guitar's five lowest strings. It is essentially a minor eleventh chord, arranged as it would be played on a guitar (1, 4, ♭7, ♭3, 5).
    It may also be thought of as a five-note quartal chord (built from fourths) with the top note lowered by a semitone. More modern sounding than "tertial chords" (built from thirds), it is useful in comping; since the structure of quartal harmony is usually vague, many roots may be applied to the So What chord and it may work well in various contexts including, "a major scale context; a Mixolydian mode context; or a minor context".

  1. For example, the E chord described above can also be C6Δ9, Asus47(9), G69, Dsus24, 6 [no 7], Flydian (FΔ9♯1113 [no 5]) or F♯phrygian (F♯m7♭911♭13 [no 5]).
    Other jazz recordings that make extensive use of the chord include McCoy Tyner's "Peresina" and Gary Burton's "Gentle Wind and Falling Tear." Tyner's use of similar voicings was an early influence on Chick Corea; it can be heard in tunes such as "Steps" and "Matrix" (both featured on his landmark album "Now He Sings, Now He Sobs").
    The term "So What chord" is used extensively in Mark Levine's landmark work The Jazz Piano Book, wherein he describes a range of uses for which the voicing might be employed. Frank Mantooth dedicated two chapters to the chord under the name "Miracle voicing" in his work Voicings for Jazz Keyboard.





What is a delta chord?

I don't think I've seen this notation before. What is a Δ chord? - Rainwarrior 18:05, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Basically a major seventh chord - however a jazz musician who sees one will generally apply whatever voicing he feels like. Kisch 13:00, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
That's... really odd that I haven't seen it before. I've played in Jazz bands my whole life! Is it obscure? Or maybe I've just never played anything written by people who us it. If it's just a major seventh chord, how come we don't use that term instead? Or, could we have delta chord exist as a redirect to whatever article major seventh chord is describe in with an explanation there? - Rainwarrior 15:26, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
It's used in the article for seventh chord, and The Jazz Piano Book uses it, and lots of other theory books - I'd say it's fairly frequent... It's probably not used in jazz scores because the simple chord name (eg C) is enough to imply a major chord, to which a seventh or sixth will usually be added ad lib anyway. Kisch 16:55, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Ah, yes I have not read very much Jazz theory at all, so that maybe explains why I've never (consciously) encountered it before. I'll add some wikilinks to try to make this clear for the future in case anyone else has the same quesiton. - Rainwarrior 00:42, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
there are different conventions from around the world. The ideal notation is difficult to find. When hard written a Δ can look like an О for a dimished chord. I wonder is there an article on chord notation? hehe Dndn1011 11:31, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Improved

I added some material and citations. What in the article needs to be verified or cited? Hyacinth (talk) 01:40, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Em7sus4

Why can't a chord have two chord qualities? And by "why" I mean prove it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hyacinth (talk • contribs)
The definition of "sus" is suspending the third, whether sus2 (downwards) or sus4 (upwards). A minor chord (presumably with a minor 7) with an added ninth is called minor 9 and the same with an added 11th is called minor 11. I'll find sources later. 87.69.130.159 (talk) 23:08, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
If you doubt my contributions and my sources you have obviously not attempted to verify a single one. For example, in this article you may click on MRawlins, Robert and Eddine Bahha, Nor (2005). Jazzology: The Encyclopedia of Jazz Theory for All Musicians in the sources section. Then find this book on Amazon and "Search Inside This Book" for "so what chord" and go to page 81, the page cited. There you may read, the text: "This type of voicing, m7sus4, consists of a series of three P4ths with a 3rd on top." Hyacinth (talk) 23:54, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
They most likely call it sus4 because the 4th is voiced below the minor 3rd. However, if this is sourced, Wikipedia says it's OK and so will I. 87.69.130.159 (talk) 23:58, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
What do you mean by if? Hyacinth (talk) 05:33, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
I mean exactly what I wrote. From below, the first note that could define the chord's quality is the perfect fourth; the minor third is voiced above it. Therefore, they decided to call it how it sounds from below upwards. Come to think of it, it's actually a good way of seeing this chord as it sounds differently from a m11 chord, where the fourth is voiced above the chord tones. 87.69.130.159 (talk) 05:43, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
"If this is sourced" is strange wording for something that is cited and sourced. Hyacinth (talk) 18:52, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
Not in the context of that complete sentence. So how about the "Noreen's Nocturne" example in regards to this issue? Hearfourmewesique (talk) 22:25, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Oscar Peterson Trio

Noreen's Nocturne  

Rome 1969 Sistina theatre



"Noreen's Nocturne" is not mentioned in this article or previously on this talk page. I assume you refer to the excerpt on Thirteenth but I don't know to what about it you refer. Hyacinth (talk) 03:23, 6 July 2009 (UTC)




Following our discussion about the "So What chord" – please notice the fifth chord in your transcription of "Noreen's Nocturne".    It's voiced exactly like the "So What chord" but called Fm11.
I assume the above. What about that am I supposed to notice? Note that this article reads, "[The So What chord] is essentially a minor eleventh chord (-11, m11)" which appears to be consistent with your observation. Hyacinth (talk) 05:15, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
Your initial question in this discussion is "Why can't a chord have two chord qualities?" To be honest, if you really do not know the answer to it, I seriously doubt your understanding of musical theory at large. This is not a personal attack – I am genuinely concerned about the quality of Wikipedia's musical theory related articles.


Hearfourmewesique (talk) 19:28, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
If you where concerned with the quality of Wikipedia, and not simply defending your opinion, you would be looking up sources. If you are unable to cite a source I question your knowledge. Hyacinth (talk) 09:31, 29 November 2010 (UTC)



 Considering that Em7 comprises of E-G-B-D and Esus4 comprises of E-A-B-D then E-G-A-B-D is Em7add11 and not Em7sus4 (a chord that is incorrect from a technical point of view). Simply put, a chord can not be minor or major and suspended at the same time. E-G-A-B-D is Em7add11 because the 4th is added to the chord and the 3rd still remains a part of it. In theory it can also be written as Em7add4, but this is rather unusual. Some people may write the same chord as Em7/11 or even Em11 but this (Em11) is less precise and in fact potentially ambiguous because it could imply the presence of a 9th in the chord i.e. E-G-B-D-F#-A or Em7/9/11. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.85.183.97 (talk) 08:11, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
For what I meant by "prove it", see WP:V and WP:CITE. Hyacinth (talk) 09:31, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
No, the burden of proof is on you. You're the one claiming that something is correct, although everybody with a certain experience in music will see immediately that it's not. It's getting pathetic, after all we're not here to teach you music theory. Please, go to a music school, educate yourself and come back later, or even better: leave now and don't ever come back. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.49.252.198 (talk) 18:22, 8 February 2012 (UTC)


Sources





  • John Robert Brown (2004). Mel Bay's Concise History of Jazz, p.146. ISBN 0-7866-4983-6.
















  • Rawlins, Robert and Eddine Bahha, Nor (2005). Jazzology: The Encyclopedia of Jazz Theory for All Musicians, p.81. ISBN 0-634-08678-2.












    • Martan Mann (1997). Improvising Blues Piano, p.81. ISBN 0-8256-1624-7.

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